Episode Description:

Australia just became the first country to ban social media accounts for kids under 16… but will it actually keep them safer online? In this episode, Arielle and Karissa unpack the data that pushed lawmakers to act, the huge loopholes critics are worried about, and the real trade-offs for teens, parents, and platforms. They also ask a bigger question: who should be responsible for protecting kids on the internet in the first place?

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Transcript:

Theme music 

Karissa 

Hello, and welcome to the Optimist Daily’s Weekly Roundup. I’m Karissa. 

Arielle 

And I’m Arielle, and we’re working hard to put solutions in view and optimism in movement. 

Karissa 

Welcome back. We’re here with another episode of the pod to share the solutions from the Optimist Daily this week. 

Arielle 

Yes, we are. But before we do that, we’d like to remind you that there is a free daily newsletter that you can sign up for. That way you’ll get all of these amazing solutions straight to your inbox. 

Karissa 

Yeah, and if you prefer to get your news on your social media feeds, we are on just about everything from Facebook to X, even Pinterest if you want some lifestyle solutions. We are @OptimistDaily on just about everything, except X, where we are @OdeToOptimism. 

Arielle 

And we’d love to thank our Emissaries, who are our financial supporters. If you’d also like to donate to the cause and help us keep the Optimist Daily going, then you can find out how to do that in the show notes. 

Karissa 

Yeah, and of course we appreciate any non-financial support as well. Just sharing this podcast, forwarding our daily newsletter to a friend, engaging with a social media post and posting it to your story. Anything to spread that positive, optimistic news around will really help our mission. 

Arielle 

And it’s a great time to be positive and optimistic because it’s almost the holidays. I can’t believe it’s mid-December already. 

Karissa 

I know. This year really has just flown by, and this month as well. 

Arielle 

And then it’s going to be 2027. 

Karissa 

Just wow, is all I can say (laughs). 

Arielle 

But how are you doing? 

Karissa 

I’m doing well, Arielle. I mean, like we’ve been saying, all the busyness of the holidays is definitely catching up to me. And so, I encourage everyone, and myself, to make sure to slow down, make sure to show some gratitude, show some love to yourself, and to others as we wrap up another year. 

Arielle 

Yeah, I’m pretty excited that my family will be arriving in just two days. Excited, also a little stressed. It’s always confronting to have your parents in your own space after you’ve been living away from them for a while. I hope the house is clean enough for my mom (laughs). But I guess we’ll just jump straight into our episode because we probably both have a lot to do. Well, I’m an Optimist, But… sometimes I find that there’s just not enough time to talk about all of the solutions we want to talk about. And I say this because I’m actually really excited about your solution, Karissa. So, I might put mine on the backburner and we’ll see if we have enough time to dive into it. But yeah, yours is just really, really interesting and timely. 

Karissa 

Yeah. And like you said, Arielle, it is a bummer we don’t get to talk about all the solutions here. But of course, you can go read more about them on our website. They’re always there for you. But without further ado, if you don’t mind, I would love to share my solution. 

Arielle 

Go for it, go for it. 

Karissa 

Yeah, like you said, this one is super timely. The solution is called Australia’s bold move to ban kids under 16 from social media sparks important global debates.  

This week on December 10th, Australia became the first country to ban all children under 16 from having social media accounts. And I think it opens up such a fascinating conversation on whether a ban can be effective in a situation like this and what can be done in tandem or instead to protect kids on the internet. 

Arielle 

A sweeping ban on social media for kids by an entire government is quite an ambitious move. Personally, I appreciate where this is coming from. We’ve published many articles on the negative effects of social media activity and what that does to mental health, not only for kids but adults too. And honestly, I think a blanket ban for people under 16 may not be the final solution for such a complex and nuanced issue, but it’s definitely a start, and it’s certainly caught the attention of other countries that are already working on improved regulations for online spaces. 

Karissa 

Yeah, exactly. It’s such a wild west and there’s a lot to be discussed with this. But protecting kids, I think, is definitely one of the main concerns with these digital spaces. And this new policy is meant to be a sweeping law that covers these global digital spaces like TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Threads, and other popular platforms. But whether the move will meaningfully protect young people or just simply push them towards digital workarounds is still unclear. Sometimes on the Optimist Daily, we share solutions that haven’t been fully fleshed out, and this is certainly one of them that’s so open-ended. But I think it’s safe to say that the rest of the world is definitely watching closely and there will be a lot to learn in this experiment. 

Arielle 

Yes, digital and online spaces are really new to humanity when you think about it, but they also evolve so rapidly that it feels like there will always be a steep learning curve. I think any government that is concerned with the well-being of their citizens would be interested in… in taming social media in some way, especially for youth whose brains aren’t fully developed. But what’s led to Australia being the first one to take such a huge leap? 

Karissa 

Well, the ban follows a government-commissioned study released earlier this year that painted a pretty troubling picture of kids’ online lives. 96% of children aged 10 to 15 were using social media, which is crazy. That’s just about all of them. And 70% had been exposed to harmful content, including misogyny, violence, and material promoting suicide and eating disorders, which are not great. One in seven had been targeted by grooming behavior, and more than half reported being cyberbullied. 

Arielle 

Oh my gosh, when I hear these stats, I’m already terrified. And I can only imagine how parents of young children feel, not just in Australia either, because I’m sure these numbers aren’t far off from other places in the world. Parents and guardians have to balance all the risk that comes with an online existence while, I imagine, also respecting their growing children’s privacy and freedom of expression. So how do they juggle keeping kids safe while allowing them to communicate with their friends? There’s so many factors that parents and guardians have to grapple with in this digital age. It’s just super clear that something has to be done to also take some of that burden off of citizens’ shoulders. 

Karissa 

Exactly, which is why the Australian government wants to do something about it and is why, you know, they cited these findings when introducing the ban because they accuse social media platforms of promoting design features that encourage young people to spend more time on screens while pushing content that can harm their health and well-being. And that’s not really a secret. That’s been a huge discussion for years since this has come about, but it’s time to finally do something. 

Arielle 

So, Karissa, can you explain how they’re going to attempt to make this ban work? 

Karissa 

Yeah, so children under 16 can no longer create or maintain social media accounts across 10 platforms, which include TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit, and Twitch. Existing accounts must be deactivated, but kids can still watch most content passively, as the ban only blocks interactive accounts. 

Arielle 

And who’s responsible for making sure kids under 16 don’t have their own social media accounts? Would a child or a parent face punishment for breaking this law? 

Karissa 

No, the law doesn’t punish children or parents. Instead, the burden falls entirely on social media companies who must take reasonable steps to keep under 16s off their platform or face fines of up to 49.5 million Australian dollars, which is about 32 million US dollars. So, pretty hefty fine, but maybe not enough (laughs). And to comply, companies must implement age assurance technology that goes beyond simple self-declared birthdays, because that’s kind of what’s already in place right now, you know. And that may include government ID checks, facial or voice recognition, or advanced algorithms that infer a user’s age based on online behavior. 

Arielle 

Well, these kids have grown up with tech. Most of them are more adept at navigating these hurdles than many adults I know. And I bet that some of these Australian kids are already working on workarounds. Plus, a lot of kids, even over the age of 16, don’t have government IDs, right? I didn’t get my first government ID until I got my driver’s license. And then there are issues with how reliable these verification systems are, et cetera. 

Karissa 

Yeah, critics are worrying that the rollout may backfire because also facial recognition is notoriously unreliable for teens. And many fear the law will even block adults by mistake while letting determined underage users slip through. And then, like you said, of course, Arielle too. I mean, a lot of people don’t even have like a government ID at that age. I barely did at 16 too. So, there’s a lot of things that could go wrong with this. 

Arielle 

Yeah. Or I guess I had my passport, but then again, like, not everyone has a passport. 

Karissa 

Yeah. 

Arielle 

And then not to mention all the privacy concerns. 

Karissa 

Yes. 

Arielle 

There’s been so many data breaches that any kind of data collection would be concerning for underage kids, but especially biometric and other sensitive data. So, my guess is that not all families would be okay with this. 

Karissa 

Yeah. I mean, critics actually flagged this point, especially in a country where data breaches have exposed sensitive personal information in recent years. And I mean, in a world, honestly, because I know in the United States that happens all the time.  

Arielle 

Yeah.  

Karissa 

The government insists the legislation includes strong data protections. Information collected can only be used for age verification and must be deleted immediately after. But of course, you know, data breaches are going to happen and they’re all too common. 

Arielle 

Karissa, I want to back up a bit to the fines that these social media companies would have to pay if or when they violate this ban. These are multi-billion, even trillion-dollar companies. How much of a deterrent would these fines even be to them? 

Karissa 

That’s a great point too, because actually Stephen Scheeler, who is a former Facebook executive, questioned the effectiveness of the fines as well. And he said that it takes Meta about an hour and 52 minutes to make $50 million USD in revenue. And we just mentioned that like the max fine would be $32 million. So,they can pay that easily, like in an hour, in two hours.  

And besides this only being a drop in the bucket, the ban has some other major loopholes which allow other companies to get through the cracks as well. Because dating apps, gaming platforms, and AI chatbots, some of which have been flagged for predatory or sexually suggestive behavior, are not covered by the ban. And popular gaming platforms for kids like Roblox or Discord are also excluded, although they have been working on introducing more age restrictions. And you know, those are huge digital gathering places for kids as well. 

Arielle 

Yeah, I mean, as you said, it’s like the wild, wild west or the final frontier. It’s all new. And there are so many weak points and workarounds that would allow children to basically do what they please on other platforms in the digital world, regardless of this particular ban. And probably with even less oversight and regulation. 

Karissa 

Yeah, exactly. I mean, even teens themselves seem pretty skeptical of all this because some admitted that they’re setting up fake accounts, switching to shared family profiles, or planning to use VPNs to mask their age and location.  

I came about on the internet when things were still developing, like social media was relatively new. Everyone having a smartphone was relatively new as well. But I had easy access to my mom’s phone. So, I’m sure like even for me, I can imagine that I just would have been able to like even just go on her phone if that’s what it came to.  

And these tactics already were used in the UK because similar laws were enacted under the Online Safety Act of 2023, which didn’t like come with a full ban, but it definitely had some more restrictions on kids being on these social platforms. But you know, we’re already seeing that they’re able to work around it. 

Arielle 

Yeah, I also wonder how much dialogue the Australian government has had with the very people that this ban will affect. And when I say that, I don’t necessarily mean the companies, but the actual children and parents who will be navigating these changes on the ground. I know that unregulated social media can affect any brain negatively, no matter the age, but there are also positive aspects to finding community online.  

Like, let’s say, youth with marginalized identities who may feel isolated in their small hometowns, for instance. Also, there’s educational content or even the chance to develop media literacy skills. I know that there are also a lot of content creators who are under the age of 16 who are already running businesses and making money for, I don’t know, university or whatever via their social media accounts.  

So regardless of personal opinions on whether children should already have online businesses, the fact is that some of them have put in a lot of work into building something lucrative, and then to kick them off these platforms could feel pretty unfair to them. 

Karissa 

I’m kind of thinking back to when Slime was a major thing and a lot of, kid like content creators and kind of business owners who are probably in this like younger age of the teenage spectrum were the ones behind these businesses like making Slime or something like that.  

And it could be a good thing too, you know, they’re raising money for themselves for their futures and their audience is also going to be like younger people. So, you know, you’re losing an entire audience, an entire community. So, it just makes me wonder is, like you were saying, is taking away access to social media for most of their teen years too limiting of their expression and freedom?  

For better or for worse, I joined social media when I was around 12 years old. And like I said, this is when like social media was kind of like coming about more presently. These huge like companies were really starting to get their footing on the ground, like Facebook and Instagram and stuff, which are still like the leading giants. So that was when these negative consequences were pretty like widely unknown. But we can’t just say social media and the online world is entirely bad for any age, honestly. 

Arielle 

Yeah, no, I wouldn’t say it is. But thinking about how screens are so baked into children’s lives does make me sad. And it makes me wonder how much of the “real world” they’re missing out on. I remember watching that Netflix documentary a few years back called… what was it called? The Social Dilemma. Have you seen it? 

Karissa 

No, but I remember everybody was talking about it. 

Arielle 

Yeah, there were interviews with former designers and execs from companies like Facebook, Google, Twitter, Pinterest, et cetera, talking about how these platforms are engineered to be addictive. And several of these big shots in these companies mentioned that they don’t let their own kids anywhere near social media or let them have smartphones or unrestricted screens, which I think is super telling. But then again, this digital screen-saturated reality is what the world has become, and perhaps… the conversation should really be more about learning how to wield social media safely and fairly, both from the company side and from the users at any age. 

Karissa 

Yeah, exactly. I think it kind of also opens up the broader conversation of who is responsible for making sure the digital landscape is safe. Because is it the government? Is it these companies? Which I think, you know, is it the families? Is it the kids themselves? I think it should be a mix of all of these factors. And, is a full band the complete answer? I don’t know.  

Arielle, I just wanted to go back and touch on how you’re talking about these social spaces can be a place for development as well. I don’t think I would have been exposed to so many opinions and like the realities of life if I wasn’t on social media at a young age. I entered the digital sphere as a preteen. And from a young age, it connected me to, causes that I am now like pretty passionate about. I would say it formed my political views and values from being a teen on Twitter and Tumblr. When Donald Trump first became a presidential candidate in 2016, there was a lot of discussion that I wouldn’t have even been exposed to. I don’t think like if I didn’t have that space. You know, also just in terms of expression too, like developing your identity and a lot of that these days can be online. 

Arielle 

Yeah, I hear you. The online world can be a playground for kids to explore their passions and for them to get comfortable early on with tools they will certainly have to use in their adult lives. Yeah. But actually what you said about political views and everything… the shaping of ideology via the internet could also be very easily weaponized if not regulated carefully. 

Karissa 

Yes. 

Arielle 

And if that power is placed in the hands of those who only have their best interests and agendas in mind, I don’t know… that freaks me out. Social media and data companies today know us so intimately through tracking our behavior, and… I don’t know… at that point, the relationship we have with it, I feel, can be and probably is quite exploitative, like using our own identities, our deepest fears and desires to extract money from us without our permission is just… it gives me the creeps. 

Karissa 

I know. Yeah, it gives me the creeps too. And I mean, like you’re saying, like there can be good and bad, like, use that can be shaped. A huge discussion right now too is the male loneliness epidemic that has been formed from these spaces online that are pretty, I would say negative, I’m sorry, but like really bad for society and taking so many steps backwards. And this can go for, you know, not just like the male loneliness epidemic, but so many other things too, just like hateful… it could be a place of connection. It could be like connection for good causes or for hateful causes as well. 

Arielle 

Yeah. Well, back to Australia’s social media ban specifically. While we discussed many of its weak points, and let’s call them areas of improvement, I do think that they’ve made a seriously brave move in being the first country to do something about this and open up the conversation at a global level. 

Karissa 

Yeah, exactly. I mean, the rollout is going to be imperfect. And as Communications Minister Annika Wells even admitted, you know, this rollout will not be flawless. She says it’s going to look a bit untidy on the way through. Big reforms always do, which is so true. But the government maintains that doing something is better than doing nothing, which I agree with. 

Arielle 

Yes, we have to start somewhere, and we just have to accept that it’s going to be a lot of trial and error. We’ve opened up Pandora’s box with the internet and social media without knowing what’s on the other side. And we cannot go back in time… yet. That much is clear. So, the solution or solutions to this multifaceted global problem won’t be simple, and it’s going to take a lot of collaboration across the board. 

Karissa 

Yeah, Australia is taking a great step here, and it’s out of a place for concern for their citizens, of course. And the rest of the world is also, you know, taking similar steps as well. It’s really encouraging to hear that Denmark has announced a similar under 15 ban. Again, will a ban work? Who knows? And I mean, France is debating a curfew for teens on social media, so that could be something effective as well. Spain and Norway are exploring new restrictions. And like we mentioned earlier, the UK took action with their 2023 Online Safety Act. And also in the UK, companies now face major fines or even jail time for executives if they fail to prevent kids from accessing harmful content. So that’s a pretty bold step as well.  

So, there is action around the world, but there’s definitely not a straightforward path quite yet in protecting kids online. And something that we kind of touched on earlier too is that this space is here to stay, the Pandora’s box is open, and it’s going to be ever-changing too. This is just something that’s going to have to keep evolving. 

Arielle 

I am so curious to find out which solutions will be the most effective and fair, and whether corporations can set aside their concerns with monetary gain in favor of what’s actually good for humanity, especially concerning the well-being of younger generations. 

Karissa 

Right, exactly. So maybe a ban is the answer, or maybe it isn’t. And that’s why open-ended solutions like this one are fascinating to examine and also a reason for optimism, even if they haven’t solved an entire issue quite yet. It opens up the door for more discussion and more improvement on a very complex and nuanced issue that will continue to evolve. 

Arielle 

Well, I’m sure other governments will be inspired to make some serious moves or will at least be watching to see what happens with Australia before making any big decisions. I know we at the Optimist Daily will be following this space closely. 

Karissa 

And we are interested in what our listeners think of this ban. First, I mean, who is responsible for online safety for kids? Is it the government, the companies, or families? Is age 16 too harsh of a ban? Is it too much, too little? Are there other things that you think governments, families, or schools could do to help protect children online? E-mail us your thoughts at Social@OptimistDaily.com or send us a message on socials even and let us know. 

Arielle 

Yes, we are so curious what all you forward-thinking solutions-focused people have in mind when it comes to this issue. So don’t be shy, share your hot takes with us, and on that note, I think we did talk quite a lot about this one. Maybe we’ll save my solution for another time. What do you think, Karissa? 

Karissa 

I think so. And I mean, like we said, all these solutions are available on OptimistDaily.com. And yeah, some of the ones that we included this week are. 

Arielle 

Gift shopping for a loved one with cancer this holiday season? Here’s what actually helps. From compost to crops: banana peels show surprising power as eco-friendly fertilizer. EU greenlights 100 hydrogen projects in major energy transformation plan. The surprising emotional life of bees: what bumblebees can teach us about contagious joy. What else did we have, Karissa? 

Karissa 

We also have Decades of protection pay off as endangered whales make a rare comeback in Canada. And this one. Smelling your own farts might be good for your brain, science says. Go check that one out. It’s fascinating (laughs). New stem cell treatment shows promise for reversing vision loss in macular degeneration patients. 3 so-called bad habits that might actually be making you a better person. And How to build a life that feels good: 5 guiding principles to happiness. 

Arielle 

All right, amazing. These all sound like really interesting, eye-catching solutions, actually. Hopefully that gives everyone some good reading material for this weekend. And Karissa, see you next week when we get to talk more about the great solutions happening in this world. 

Karissa 

Looking forward to being back! 

Both 

Bye!